Talking Shop with Cameron McIntosh

This week we’re Talking Shop with Cameron McIntosh, the owner of hemp/lime construction company Americhanvre. Cameron is a leader in the emerging US HempLime landscape and in this episode, he chats with HML co-director Jonsara Ruth about how his past work with ceramics and working at a plant nursery led him to hemp. 

Transcript

Burgess Brown:
Welcome back to Trace Material. This week, we're talking shop with Cameron Macintosh, the owner of
hemp/lime construction company Americhanvre. Cameron is a leader in the emerging US hemp/lime
landscape. And in this episode, he chats with HML co-director Jonsara Ruth about how his past worked
with ceramics and working at a plant nursery led him to hemp. Cameron let us in on the work of
Americhanvre and laid out his hopes for the future of the hemp industry. Here's Jonsara.
Jonsara Ruth:
So Cameron! So great that you can be here with us today to talk about hempcrete, hemp and lime. It
was so great to meet you actually in person at that US Hemp Building Association meeting and Ketchum
last October. You know, we had seen a little bit about Americhanvre and then to meet you in person, it
was really exciting.
Cameron McIntosh:
Wonderful, wonderful to be here and thank you both for having me. And I agree what a, what a special
event that was in Ketchum and, you know, especially now considering that it may be a very long time
until we have all of those people in the same room at the same time again.
Jonsara Ruth:
Yeah. It was fortuitous actually, right? There's so much energy around this idea of bringing these
materials together, hemp and lime and, and thinking about the future of the built world. It's really
exciting.
Cameron McIntosh:
Right, right.
Jonsara Ruth:
So, you know, we're, we, as you know, we've been doing a lot of research about hemp and lime and the
combination of the two to make, you know, more sustainable, healthier buildings. And for us, this is just
such an exciting, you know, new field and kind of a new way forward. But if we look back and, you know,
you have a lot of experience building getting your hands in the material and building with this stuff. And
so we're really eager to hear insights. I thought we would just start with just hearing a little bit about
how you first got into it. Like, what were your first experience with hemp and lime?
Cameron McIntosh:
Sure. Yeah. So I have a ceramics degree, Bachelor of Fine Art with a concentration in ceramics. And
when I graduated from college, I moved back to Allentown, Pennsylvania, which is where my wife grew
up whom I met at college in North Carolina. And I, the first sort of employment that I found was at this
amazing working history museum in Doylestown, Pennsylvania, where they're working with a catalog of
re-issued art deco tile, it's called the Moravian pottery and tile works.
Jonsara Ruth:
That's an amazing place.
Cameron McIntosh:

Isn't it? Yeah, it's, it's fantastic. And for the listeners, it's again, a working history museum built by Henry
Mercer cast concrete in the style of a Spanish mission. So it's just an incredible, incredible place. And if
you're in Pennsylvania, absolutely check it out. Wonderful experience. Got a taste and an appetite for
handmade tile recognize that there was an appetite for that tile in the area as well.
Cameron McIntosh:
And unfortunately that apprenticeship ended. It was shortly after the recession. I would have loved to
have worked there, but they just weren't hiring at that point. So I took a job nearby at a native plant
nursery so that I could stay in the area and be, you know, familiar with driving there and all that. And,
you know, fast forward, eight years later, I'm the operations manager at the plant nursery. I've learned
small business, estimating and bidding. We did a lot of, you know, restoration projects, publicly bid
stormwater management, you know, stream bank restoration things like that. And again, gained an
appreciation for native plants and wanted to pull both of those things together to create a line of
planter boxes that had, you know, handmade tile on the outside and native plants on the inside for
urban environments.
Cameron McIntosh:
We had lots of wealthy clients all, all over the tri-state area, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York many
of whom were in the city in New York City and were keen to have, you know, container gardens. So that
was sort of the impetus that led me to hempcrete. I made one out of concrete. I made a planter box out
of concrete. It was ungodly heavy. I'm a big guy and it took me in another big guy and the risk of our
toes basically to, to move it. So I knew that I needed to find something lighter. So I started doing
research found Aircreate, aerated concrete. If anyone's familiar, it's sort of a foam injected into a slurry
of Portland cement. Wonderful product, very moldable, not very sustainable, obviously because it's
Portland cement.
Cameron McIntosh:
And that is when I stumbled across hempcrete. And I made the same mistake that everybody does when
they hear that word. And I thought, hey, I can use that in place of concrete in my planter boxes. So
following that path I reached out to a local historic masonry supply called LimeWorks in Telford, PA,
which happened to be no more than 20 minutes from where I was working at the nursery and only
about 40 minutes from where I lived. And they are one of three companies in the United States right
now that is making a pre-bagged hempcrete binder. So this was again the fates sort of aligning. So I
called, I talked to Chris Hertz in, you know, had a wonderful conversation with him and he said, hey,
we're, you know, we're doing a workshop with hempcrete next month, would you be interested?
Cameron McIntosh:
And I said, of course. So I signed up and their workshop series is geared towards professionals, so it's not
cheap. And because of the fact that hempcrete was relatively unknown, still is, this was June of 2018. I
was the only one that took the workshop. So I had Chris all to myself.
Jonsara Ruth:
Amazing.
Cameron McIntosh:

And so that was fantastic. And they knew what I wanted to do as far as the planter boxes. So we spent
the first two days retrofitting what had been designed to look like a corn crib, but was actually the
entrance into the bottom of their barn facility, where they did a lot of blending and stuff from the high
side, you know, on the back of the barn.
Cameron McIntosh:
Blending of the hemp and lime?
Cameron McIntosh:
Blending of all of their masonry, you know, historic masonry supplies. So when they get, you know, an
order for a particular color they will, they can pigment, you know, their products and then send them
out.
Jonsara Ruth:
So mostly lime based products.
Cameron McIntosh:
All lime based, yeah. They work with you know, natural hydraulic lime, unfortunately, out of France. But
this hempcrete binder that they have is actually hydrated lime sourced from within Pennsylvania. So it's
about 90% a local product for us. So again, all of these things seem to be aligning. This was my first
indication that the stars were aligning. And at the conclusion of that workshop, you know, Chris, and
both, both Chris and Andy, the owner said, "Hey, you know, you seem to have your wits about you and
you seem to be handy with tools and whatnot. We're getting leads for building with hempcrete and we
don't have anyone to forward them to." So, you know, I formed my LLC about, you know, three weeks
later. And you know, wasn't until about January of 2019 that I finally pulled the trigger and left my
current job which was working at the nursery again, I had been there for almost eight years. Learned,
learned a lot about small business project management you know, all things that prepared me very well
for what I was going to do next.
Jonsara Ruth:
That's amazing. So, like, you, you you're working with plants now, you're talking to people with lime, and
then you kind of see this connection about this one plant hemp and lime to put together and make, you
know, make a new material that you could not quite substitute for concrete, but something similar. Can
you describe, like, do you remember the feeling of like touching the stuff the first time?
Cameron McIntosh:
Oh yeah. Vividly. I had become aware, signed up for the workshop, but it was about a month or two out
yet. And I found a supplier in North Carolina that had hemp hurd because I was just dying to get my
hands on it. I bought a box trailer and I drove it down to North Carolina, picked up the hemp hurd, and
came back you know, with this material. And you know, the, the workshop, you know, when the
workshops started, it was, it was very well done. It was the classroom, you know, the first few hours was
sort of a classroom environment where Chris walked us through the science behind everything. And
then we went out and started mixing and it happened to be, their supply for that workshop happened to
be from Sunstrand.
Jonsara Ruth:

Their supply of hemp. Of hemp hurd.
Cameron McIntosh:
Yeah. So it was in a big, super sack.
Jonsara Ruth:
And Sunstrand is local, right? It's in Kentucky,
Cameron McIntosh:
Sunstrand was, was local. Is no longer, which is unfortunate and was sort of a big setback for the fiber
industry. But you know, I just remember, you know, the hemp coming out of the super sack, the smell of
it, you know, it's very earthy and wonderful. It does not smell like cannabis. You know, it has a very clean
straw farm kind of scent to it. And then the lime that they use at LimeWorks again is hydrated lime from
within Pennsylvania. There's no Portland cement, so it's very white it's pure white. And when you mix
the two together, you get this beautiful white you know, with, you know, punctuated with little yellow
specks of the, of the hemp hurd. And it has this amazing smell to it. It's like, you know, a very basic, but
not intrusive or, you know, harsh smell, you know, and it has this, you know, instantly this feeling of, of
the fact that you're working, you know, right away that you're working with something natural and clean
and healthy, and it does not in any way make you think, you know, of traditional building materials with
that petrochemical offgassing horrible smell.
Cameron McIntosh:
You know what I mean? So yeah, it was very, you know, even from the start very, you know, I hesitate to
say spiritual, you know, the, the experience you know, and the retrofit that we did on that corn crib
included the floor. We did a little bit of the floor, the walls, and then there was a dividing wall between a
shed in the back and the stairwell going down which was cast much like you would cast for new
construction. So it was a really great project and a really great review of all of the different techniques
that you might come in front of, you know, on one little, you know, concise packaged project, so.
Jonsara Ruth:
And how long did that little project take you?
Cameron McIntosh:
We did it, we did our portion of it in two days. And the rest of it, I think, was finished in a day or so by,
by you know, Andy's guys, but we probably did about 50% of it in two days. And they weren't, you know,
long days, because there was lots of question and answer and discovery and things like that going on,
but.
Jonsara Ruth:
And was that all cast-in-place?
Cameron McIntosh:
It was. Yeah. It was, and again, as a retrofit, you know, detailing for a retrofit is a little bit different from,
you know, the, you know, new construction cast-in-place methods. So, you know, you have to be aware
of and maintain an air gap behind the material when you're placing it next to a sheet good, you know,

which in the siding or whatever, you know, the cladding that was on the, on the building was basically
plywood. So you can't have that material directly against it. So we tried a couple of different things and
eventually ended by, you know, putting an erosion control fabric. So it was basically straw. So we just
used a little bit of straw. And again, this corn crib was not sealed tight. It didn't have a vapor barrier or
anything like that, like you would have on modern construction. So it was relatively poreous to begin
with.
Cameron McIntosh:
But yeah, it was, again, a great review of all of the different scenarios that you might, you know, be
faced with when you're, when you're trying to build with hempcrete. And then the final day we would
have, we would have worked longer on it, but again, because I was the only participant and Chris knew
why I was there, he said, Hey, let's, you know, on this, on this final day, let's take the time and let's make
a planter box. So that was great. So, you know, they had all kinds of material on hand. We did some, we
did some different mixes, test batches, to get started. And then, you know, in that process sort of, you
know, chose the one that we felt was the best before it had cured. Obviously we didn't get to the point
of seeing them cure, but just, you know, by feel, sort of chose the one that was best. And we cast the
first planter box in the same form that I had made that original concrete planter box. So that was, that
was a great sort of full circle moment, you know?
Jonsara Ruth:
How did you, what was the difference like, you know, from your, so you had a concrete planter box and
you had an aerated concrete block planter box, and then you had the hemp and lime. What was the
difference?
Cameron McIntosh:
Weight. In one word, weight. I mean, it was less than a quarter of the weight of the concrete box. And
we actually used a natural cement, you know, to make that first one. It wasn't, the LimeWorks
hempcrete binder. It was actually a natural cement that they had on hand. And it still exists. It's sitting
on my porch right now. So, you know, it was, again, the lightweight, I mean, instantly I knew that, you
know, there was a potential here to use the hemp hurd as an aggregate, maybe not with the traditional
lime mix. And we've sort of been on that path for the, for the cast objects, for the planter boxes,
tweaking it a little bit. You know, and it's progressed, but it's the kind of thing where I'm taking it slowly
and I'm doing the work of, you know, stress testing these boxes before we just release them to the
public, because I don't want them to fail in our climate.
Cameron McIntosh:
We've got the freeze thaw issue to be, you know, aware of and to manage. But you know, since then
you know, we, we started our company, set ourselves up as an installation subcontractor specifically.
Don't, don't want to be bogged down by being a GC, a general contractor. Although I could do that I
want to focus specifically on installing this material you know, and then also develop a line of, of cast
objects decorative and otherwise for, you know, for interior and exterior use. So that's sort of where
we've landed consulting, install and the cast objects.
Jonsara Ruth:
Great. What a great trajectory. I mean, just imagining you as a ceramics major from start, like really
working with your hands with this natural clay, to working at the Mercer museum, which is the first cast-

in-place concrete building in the United States, wasn't it? Something like that, which is just kind of
amazing. And then, you know, working with this tile and then going into working with hemp and lime,
you know, then working with the nursery with plants and then hemp and lime it's this trajectory that
just makes, makes it amazing. Cause you know, we thought about the Mercer museum a lot, actually,
when we were thinking about, you know, cast-in-place hemp, hemp and lime, because, you know,
there's a lot of firsts that are happening right there around you in Allentown. Historically the Mercer
museum, and now cast-in-place hemp, hemp and lime, really what a great story, you know.
Cameron McIntosh:
It's very, it's amazing because I don't think about it, you know, consistently, but the path that led me to
where I am now is... it seems to have all had a purpose and I think that's how everyone, everyone ends
up, you know, in their life kind of arriving where they were supposed to be. But you know, it certainly
doesn't, it certainly feels like there was you know, some sort of cosmic push.
Jonsara Ruth:
That's great. So can you tell us a little bit about now, like today, how are you working with hemp and
lime? I mean, I get the part about the I guess you described a bit about these cast-in-place objects, so
the planters and that, but in terms of working with hemp and lime for buildings and you talked a little bit
about retrofit and a little bit about new construction. So, you know, what's your ideal working scenario
now?
Cameron McIntosh:
So we have we have basically gotten to a point where you know, the building side of it is very much our
main focus. You know, I would love to in the downtime as a seasonal sort of business I would love in the
downtime to keep developing, you know, the planters and other things, but the interest in this material
has just continued to grow. And we have, you know, made the connections. I think a lot of it's stemming
from the, you know, the summit in Idaho where we all sort of met each other for the first time to now
where, you know, we have legitimate interest from people in our area, which is super compelling. I
mean, at a certain point, and certainly for companies like Hempitecture, you know, we have to be
athletic and travel to do projects.
Cameron McIntosh:
We're starting to develop a book of business in our area specifically, which is very important to us. We'd
really like to see this stay local and remain local. And hemp production does stand to be local. Lime, as
you know, Jonsara, stands to be local. You can find it in every country in the world. So yeah, we're
focusing, you know, heavily on our area. Have a handful of projects. You know, some retrofits, some
new buildings, some very exciting projects, that'll be new building. And then also, you know, a few
clients for whom we've actually cast objects. One of them is a CBD lounge in Stroudsburg area, so that's
not too far from me and also not too far from the city. And we made them a bar, you know, for their, for
their lounge for consumption that people can sit at and it's the base of it is hempcrete, you know, so it's
really great.
Cameron McIntosh:
And then also in Stroudsburg, another friend is opening a bed and breakfast in an old boarding house on
a wonderful farm that he bought. It's a heritage organic farm. I call it heritage organic because it's not
certified organic, but it was owned by the same family for 150 years, and never has a drop of pesticide

or fertilizer been used on the property. And you can tell. The native species are there. The native plants
are there, the soil is wonderful and healthy. But we're, we're going to basically be retrofitting and adding
onto this old, you know, five bedroom boarding house that's on the property with hempcrete. We're
also building a small cottage, or retrofitting a small cottage on the property to be the caretaker's
cottage. You know, clients, clients nearby also that are looking to build new.
Cameron McIntosh:
So, I mean, it's amazing how quickly you know, the interest sort of blossomed and, you know, as I was
mentioning to the two of you ahead of time here it seems as though, and we're cautiously optimistic
that, you know, this, that green building in general and hempcrete in particular may just be recession
proof. It seems as though people who are interested in doing this, or who may have been interested in
doing this before are even more motivated in the face of, you know, a generational challenge, this
pandemic. They're literally, they're more motivated to make intentional decisions. And I think we're
seeing that across the board. CSAs are booked, you know, small farms are, are, are struggling to keep up
with the demand for local products. So yeah.
Jonsara Ruth:
It's just such a great, you know, this is the part about hemp and lime that is really exciting is that it's it
just has that similar movement to the small farm kind of, you know, local agriculture, local food
movement, you know, it, there's a lot of similarity, so you have so much enthusiasm for this and, you
know, it's just, it's infectious, your enthusiasm and your optimism about the industry at large about, you
know, building with hemp and lime retrofitting. Is there anything that keeps you up at night?
Cameron McIntosh:
I am a project manager at heart. It is part of my personality to want to solve problems for other people.
And when I get in front of a project, you know, like the one I described in Stroudsburg, the bed and
breakfast, I literally think about it all night long until it's done. So aside from the day-to-day operations,
that certainly keeps me up at night. What else keeps me up at night? I would say the fear that, you
know, or the apprehension around the fact that, you know, people with industrial hemp focus so heavily
on CBD, because it was the obvious, you know, moneymaker and everyone was going to be a millionaire
overnight. The venture capitalist vultures were swarming around that industry and have now sort of
turned their focus to fiber.
Cameron McIntosh:
And I want very much to see this industry stay just inclusive, you know, local, all of those things. And it
may seem odd to hear that from a prototypical white male business owner, but what we have in the
early industry here is a collection of people who are very committed to, you know, closing the gender
and racial equality gaps. And that is something that I learned and gained a respect for and started
thinking about in terms of my own business via, you know, our friend, Judy Wicks, and All Together Now
PA. Very, very much changed my mind about what I wanted for my business and for this industry. And it
is more important to me that we find a way to fix these problems within this industry, you know, and
allow it to be a model for other industries where we are, you know, focused on keeping the industry
local and sustainable and just. I think now more than ever people realize that. I think that's part of why
we're getting the interest that we're getting.
Cameron McIntosh:

It makes sense. We all have seen very clearly now how fragile our global supply chains are. We are all
witness, we've all been forced to witness the racial inequality in this country. I mean, these things are
front and center now. We all had nothing else to do, but watch that horrible video, you know what I
mean? It was, it was there. And I think that, you know, they say that, you know, times like this are when
we take large steps forward, you know, in terms of human growth. And I feel that, you know, I really do
feel that, and it's something that before this had never been much, you know, it had never been very
high on my radar. You know, the idea of, you know, focusing on keeping, you know, a local economy
alive.
Cameron McIntosh:
And I think capitalism is what destroyed our communities, and I'm not a communist or a Marxist or
anything like that. All about making a profit, but doing it in such a way that it isn't in spite of the people
around you or the planet, you know what I mean? So that really to find a, to find a way to keep that, to
find a way to keep that front and center in this industry and not allow, you know, it to just become
another old white man's game, you know, is important to me and participating in that. And, you know,
even Judy was speaking with, you know, Eric and I, the other day, Eric is the owner of the Hempstead in
Stroudsburg and said, you know, when I was your age, I was, I was very motivated to do things for
myself. She was like, I was not like you guys at all.
Cameron McIntosh:
And now, you know, at the age she is now, she's encouraging all of us to think differently about what it
means to be an entrepreneur. And how to start a business and do it in such a way that it is good for you
as the entrepreneur, anybody who says they're not in it to make money as lying, we're all in it for that.
But to do it in such a way that, again, that it's not in spite of the people around you or the planet, and I
think that's our generation's, you know, charge. I think that's what we, we have to do that. I have
children. We have to do that, you know? So lots of things keep me up at night.
Jonsara Ruth:
Yeah. Yeah. I see what if we think just just towards the future a little bit, like if you were, imagine, you
know, 10 years down the road, what do you think the industry would look like then? Or, you know, even
like, what's that, what's the path towards that?
Cameron McIntosh:
The path towards that is encouraging, you know, via political channels, you know, subsidies and grant
funding for, you know, processing facilities. Such that, you know, a group of farmers could band
together and pay for the equipment to process the hemp that they're growing. You know, if we're going
to be specific about hemp, hemp building, hemp and lime building, we need access to local materials.
Period. If we don't have that, the price stays high, it will never become anything more than a cottage
industry. So access to local materials and competition for existing materials. You know, part of the
reason why the LimeWorks binders is $30 is because they know that if you're going to import a binder
from France, it'll cost you about $30. So there isn't much competition yet. I would hope that within, you
know, even shorter a period, but, you know, certainly by 10 years from now, that we are getting our
materials from, you know, let's say within 150 miles of where they're being used.
Cameron McIntosh:

And at that point, we're maximizing the carbon storage potential of this material, which we're all aware
of. We all know is true. The research is light on the ground as to what, you know, what that actually
means. How much carbon is it actually sequestering? But obviously if we're getting the materials from
within a certain radius of the projects that are being built, you know, we're maximizing that potential. So
I would, I would love to see, you know, that there are, you know, many people building with hemp. I'm
very open, very open to talking with people about this. I share everything I know, because I want people
to be doing it. And that you're seeing some sort of government, you know, subsidy or, you know,
encouragement for using these materials. And I think that started to happen.
Cameron McIntosh:
You know, we have the carbon tax credit is coming the carbon tax market for trading carbon tax credits
between farmers and industry is coming. So, you know, I think that all of these things tie together and
it's, again, it's a very hempster sort of thing to say, but I think that hemp is the answer to a lot, a lot of
the issues that we have. And I would love to see it being worked into as many things as possible, and
hopefully with political tailwinds behind it, to carry it into that, you know, mandates to incorporate it
into as many industries as possible. So that's, that's my hope for 10 years from now.
Jonsara Ruth:
That's great. That's great. We know it's really great to hear your insights, not only on hemp building and
in your start, but also just how you see the whole picture, you know, the supply chain, how do, how we
need to, you know, bring things local, not just by all the great ingredients that are available in France,
but somehow make them available right there in Pennsylvania. And that you're so aware of that, of the
larger impacts and the kind of the systems of production and the systems of labor that can make this a
very equitable and local and kind of really sustainable industry of building. You know, there's so much
that we didn't get to talk about yet, but we can talk about that, you know, another time, it's just, it's just
clear that your entrepreneurial insights and growth and kind of trajectory just are really, really exciting,
because it feels like it's all like really in a great place for making the planet a little bit better and people's
lives a little bit better. It's great to hear you.
Cameron McIntosh:
We have wonderful leaders. You know, again, Judy with All Together Now. The two of you, Jonsara and
Alison at the Healthy Materials Lab. I mean, all of these, all of these, you know, I should say it: women
have, have made an incredible impact on me in my life and what I want for my business. So I'm very
grateful for the strong female leadership that we've been, you know, blessed to work with and learn so
much. I mean, I'm a very different, very different approach to business than I would have had without
those influences. So thank you as well.
Jonsara Ruth:
That's great to hear. Thanks so much, Cameron.